Both together

Date: 2015-10-07; view: 524.

Jon Sopel: [unintelligible – both together]

Tony Blair: No, I'm not saying that, but I mean you know, it's hardly surprising isn't it, it's not... shock horror headline, someone in the Labour Party doesn't agree with Neo-Cons.

Jon Sopel: Okay. But then on... [interjection]

Tony Blair: You'll probably find a few people in the Republican Party that don't agree with Neo-Cons.

Jon Sopel: But isn't part of that is that because there's a frustration that you never seem to criticise President Bush, you know, that you get the Iraq Study Group Report coming out, which says that there ought to be a sort of gradual withdrawal of troops and there ought to be an engagement of Syria and Iran, George Bush goes in seemingly the opposite direction with this surge of additional troops, and it seems that Britain stands right by that.

Tony Blair: Yeah. But I think that – I mean, look, first of all, when people say we never disagree with the administration, climate change is a disagreement. Of course we do. But we're fighting as allies in Iraq and in Afghanistan. I happen to support what we're doing there.

And in relation to the Baker Hamilton Study Group, actually, if you look at it, what it's saying is you have to build up the, the Iraqi capability and whether you increase the numbers or troops or not, is actually left as an open question.

Now I think for President Bush, cos the situation for example in Basra is completely different from the situation in Baghdad. I think the issue is for them, how do they make sure that when they …erm… revitalise the Baghdad security plan this time it works.

Jon Sopel: Did you imagine that when you promised that there would be a thriving stable open democracy in Iraq, that by the time you left office it would be in chaos, near civil war, and just a million miles from that?

Tony Blair: Yeah. But I don't, I suppose, I, I don't think anyone …erm…, really predicted accurately what would happen in Iraq. But I want to just make one thing very clear to you because, you know, this is a, this is one of the biggest decisions I took. I still believe that the world is better off without Saddam.

I believe that the Iraqi people themselves want democracy, they don't want civil war. This is an attempt to visit this upon them from external extremist linking up with internal extremists. And the reason I don't share the same... [interjection]

Jon Sopel: You don't worry that judgment will be made: “Prime Minister Blair made things worse”?

Tony Blair: Well, you know, these judgments will be made in time but I refuse to believe and I always have that countries like Iraq or Afghanistan, where exactly the same arguments could be mounted, that these countries face a choice between either a secular dictator or a religious fanatic or a group of religious fanatics running them. Why shouldn't the people have the same rights to democracy that we have.

Now the reason it's difficult in Iraq or Afghanistan, it's not cos British soldiers or American soldiers are killing innocent people. This is terrorism, insurgent groups trying to stop the will of the democratic majority being put into effect. What should our role be? This is why I find it so difficult when people say, the situation in Iraq or Afghanistan is really challenging and difficult, therefore we should remove ourselves. Surely, the first question to ask is, do the people of those countries want democracy and freedom? Answer: yes they do!

They show it every time they're given the chance to vote and secondly, why is it difficult and challenging? It's difficult and challenging because you have these extremist groups, who see the strategic importance to them, the world over of disabling those states from reaching that, that democracy. So, my point is, what should our response be?

Our response should be when they are making this situation difficult and challenging by trying to deny the will of the majority, we should be standing up for the majority of people who want freedom and democracy in those countries, who want non-sectarian, non-fanatical, non-extremist futures.

Jon Sopel: Okay, let's go back go to some of the domestic policies that you've sketched out at the top. And again, this whole question of your authority becomes central. I mean the row that there has been over the past week, over gay adoption where it seemed that you've wanted to kind of find a compromise between the catholic church and gay rights groups, and you have... [interjection]

Tony Blair: I still do.

Jon Sopel: ...when you have Alan Johnson going on the TV and saying, well it's frankly impossible. You know, the anti- discrimination legislation is anti-discrimination legislation.

Tony Blair: Yeah, but you know, people go on as if this sort of thing never happened in my ten years as Prime Minister. When we had the ban on smoking, I seem to remember the same happened. I remember having debates about fox hunting (laughs) you know, which were pretty difficult in getting everyone to come in to the same place.

The whole point is that these issues, which are not issues of, of you know, they're not issues to do with great party ideology in some way, they're issues that involved matters of conscience and where you've got two principles, both of which are very important, that are colliding with each other and not in a sort of, you know, it's not part of the defined ... [interjection] ... no, hang on a minute! It's not part of a, in a sense, you know, the defining issues of political ideology. It's not surprising that you have that. But my job as Prime Minister is to sort it out.

Jon Soplel: Sure!

Tony Blair: And that's what I'm going to have to do in the next few days.

Jon Sopel: I know you talked about Peter Hain at the moment, implying that, well look, he's running for the Deputy Leadership, what do you expect? Everybody seems to be running for the Deputy – a lot of people are running for the Deputy Leadership.

Tony Blair: … it is an interesting field then…

Jon Sopel: Yeah! You're not going to be conducting the next major cabinet reshuffle. It will be your successor. I just wondered whether that does lead to a diminution in authority?

Tony Blair: You know, one of the problems is that we just, we, we've not got fixed terms in our country. Lots of countries do. And when they do, it isn't an issue and we're just going to have to get to the political maturity where we don't regard it as a huge issue either. I mean Bill Clinton ... [interjection] ... well hang on a minute, let me just...

Jon Sopel: But there is a bit of a diminution...

Tony Blair: No, no I'm not. I'm about to say precisely the opposite. If you take for example Bill Clinton, …erm…, in his last days of office, almost pulling off the Middle East peace deal. You know, you take what the government has done in the last few months. Let's just go through it for a moment. The most radical pensions reform, right, incredibly difficult to get consensus on. We got it! Energy, right, both climate change and energy security, including the re-launch of nuclear power, including …erm…, the Climate Change Bill that's going to be published in a few weeks time. The doubling of the City Academy Programme. This National Health Service Reform, that is really, really tough, in a few weeks time… [interjection]

John Sopel: Why do you have ministers campaigning against your...

Tony Blair: No, hang on! Hang on! Let me come to that in a minute, come to that in a minute. Welfare reform, within the next few weeks, where we'll be publishing again, very radical proposals on terrorism as well and the reorganisation of the Home Office.

Look, you measure authority by getting things done and I know what – of course there's parts of the media that want to say: “Look, you know, the government stalled, nothing is moving forward and the very reason we got a lot of these issues at the moment on our plate, like this big health service business, is precisely because we are pushing it forward”.

Now, you raise the issue of individual ministers. Let's just lay this one to rest. They are campaigning on local consultations that haven't even resulted in local decisions yet, let alone a government decision that requires collective responsibility. And as I keep saying to people, it's a new doctrine of collective responsibility to me, that an MP, who happens to be a Minister, can't participate in a local consultation.

Jon Sopel: Well what about, okay then, the state of the Home Office...

Tony Blair: [laughs] Go to the next one...

John Sopel: [unintelligible]... a number...